CategoryInvestment process

On selling

By Rohit Chauhan
In Investment process, Portfolio management
1 month ago
3 Min read
O

There are three ways we can sell or scale out a position

  1. Sell early or in other words sell into strength
  2. Sell late or in other words sell into weakness
  3. Sell at the absolute top

The first two options are known only in hindsight and the third option is a desire of many investors, but should never be the goal of a sensible investor. I know of no system where someone can sell at the top on a consistent basis (consistent being the key word)

All forms of investing and trading try to achieve an above average return on a consistent basis. So lets remove option c and focus on the other two options.

We have to pick our poison – Either sell early and leave some money on the table or sell late and see some of the paper gains evaporate. We use a mix of the two to minimize regret

For example, we sold some of Polycab, Apl apollo etc into strength in 2022 and 2023 and the balance was sold after we hit the peak and the stock started sliding. In these two cases, we sold some early based on position sizing and the rest once we hit the stoploss or due to some issue. In both cases, we achieved a decent return on the total position.

Both the stocks rose after we trimmed the positions in 2022/23 and polycab even doubled from our initial sale. For the portion we held on, we made a decent return but sold below the peak price

In effect, we had regrets after each transaction and that is the key point. No matter, what decision we make, we will have regrets. Sometimes the result of the action will be visible in months and sometimes after years (such as Balaji amines which went up 20X+ after we sold)

We are not trying to achieve perfection in any investment decision. We are trying to do a reasonable job and minimize (not eliminate regret).

This means that our transaction timing will be reasonable but never perfect, though we are making constant effort to improve the quality of these decisions

Disclaimer

  • This report is published by RC Capital Management – SEBI Registered Investment Advisor (INA000004088).
  • This report is for educational purposes only and should not be construed as an Investment Advice.
  • RC Capital Management may have recommended the above stocks to our clients in the past. However, this is not a recommendation to buy / hold / sell the stock at the time of publishing this report.
  • The securities quoted are for illustration purpose only and are not recommendatory
  • RC Capital Management does not hold any position in any of the companies mentioned in the report at the time of publishing the same. Its partners may hold a position in this company in their individual capacity at the time of publishing.
  • Neither RC Capital Management nor its partners have received any compensation from any company mentioned in this report for the preparation of this report.
  • There is no conflict of interest for RC Capital Management / it’s partners due to publishing this report.
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Managing risk without timing the market

By Rohit Chauhan
In Investment process
5 months ago
4 Min read
M

We posted the following to our subscribers recently. Thought of sharing it with a wider audience

There was a question from one of the subscribers to which we responded via email. we wanted to share the communication with all of you. We have slightly edited the conversation and added to it

Question:  

I am fully invested into the model portfolio stocks currently, will I get any panic alert to liquidate portfolio and raise cash and wait for a dip again. Is that how your investing style works or I stay put and be invested at all times. Asking this as, most stocks are trading at all time highs. Is it possible to buy cheap and sell high!?

Our response

We think the underlying question is about timing the market and if we cannot time it, then what will be our course of action? Will we sell in panic to raise cash or just stay put and live through the rollercoaster ride

For starters, we cannot predict the stock market and so can no one else. We have spent 25 years looking at all kinds of systems and approaches and there is none which can predict the market. Some approaches can alert you to the possibility, but there is no fool proof system. If one exists, it is unlikely the practioner will ever share it.

The second part of the question is about a sudden crash and panic selling in response to it. The only scenario where everything just collapses and requires us to liquidate the full portfolio is if a major global catastrophe occurs. Unfortunately, no one can predict or prepare for it.

We have never seen a market where everything collapses suddenly. The worst case was covid which took close to a month to play out.

So how should we navigate this risk if we cannot predict.

We have a defined process to manage risk at the portfolio level and at the risk of repetition, let’s go over it again.

  1. Being diversified: We have 20+ positions in our portfolio with no position exceeding 7% and sector allocation capped below 15%. A collapse in a stock or a sector will hurt us, but not wipe us out
  2. Avoid leverage in the portfolio including F&O: No one can force us to sell
  3. Have sufficient cash: This is not part of our advisory, but 101 of personal finance which all of you should practice. Have proper equity allocation based on your age, and risk tolerance and enough cash to cover personal expenses for 6 months
  4. Stop loss on all positions: This acts as a circuit breaker at the stock and portfolio level. If the stop loss is hit for a stock due to company, sector or market related reason we will exit from a risk management standpoint. We will cap our losses and look for reasons at a later point. These stop losses are reviewed monthly and in advance so that we don’t have to make decisions in the heat of the moment

Our approach is to buy and hold each position till either of these conditions are met.

  • Stock becomes extremely overvalued, and we decide to cut position size to manage risk.
  • Company level issues occur and causes me to lose confidence.
  • Stop loss gets hit for obvious or unknown reasons.
  • A better idea comes along.

In summary we have a process laid out to manage risk level in the portfolio via diversification, position size and finally stop loss so that we don’t have to predict what will happen. As we cannot predict, our only option is to react to what is happening and if a dire situation occurs, we will do what needs to be done

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Playing games

By Rohit Chauhan
In General thoughts, Investment process
February 18, 2022
3 Min read
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P

I got introduced to poker in 2020 and have taken to this game. You can read the rules of the game here. The rules are quite simple. The richness comes from the lack of perfect information

As the community cards open on the board, one bets not only on one’s own cards but also based on the strength of the opponent’s hand. As the opponent’s hand is hidden from us, we are forced to make probabilistic decisions

As the card are dealt, one makes these decisions based on betting and other actions (called as tells) of the opponent. The beauty of the game is that one can see the result of the decisions quite quickly – in a matter of 5-10 min as the hand is played out. This allows for rapid learning

As you play the game, the parallels with investing/trading become clear. Investing has far more variables and is not the same as poker. That said, both involve decision making under uncertainty

I wanted to share some learnings from the game, as related to investing

  • Losing even when odds are in your favor: Decision making under uncertainty involves making probabilistic decision. Even when the odds are in your favor, the result can go against you. The probability of win could be 60% which is considered high in poker, yet 40% of the time the result will be against you (no surprise there). This happens often and inspite of all the rational thinking such events do upset me. Most other players in poker or investing are not even thinking of probabilities

The key is to focus on the process and not the outcome (easier said than done)

  • Keeping losses low: Odds will often not be in your favor and you will be tempted to make a bet. At such times, folding your hand against all your instincts is the right decision. Making such decisions is never easy as one is losing money – by folding in poker or selling a position in the portfolio. However, such decisions are the key to doing well in the long run.

What ‘feels’ good in the short term is not good for long term results and vice versa. That’s why investing is simple but not easy

  • Know yourself: Some players are aggressive risk taker. They will bluff often and make big bets when odds are slightly in their favor. Other players like me are more conservative. I am constantly calculating the odds and making bets accordingly. I am also focused on not going bust in a game (losing my entire stack). I invest in stocks in the same manner. The only difference in my poker game is that I will occasionally bet high when the odds are really good.

Successful players play to their natural bent of mind, but at the same time should try to do what is not comfortable for them. Combing the right amount of offense and defense is an art and a lifelong process in poker and investing

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The difficulty in selling

By Rohit Chauhan
In behavioral finance, Investment process
November 10, 2021
4 Min read
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T

I wrote this note to our subscribers recently. Names of companies are not investment advise and we may or may not hold them in the model portfolio

Hope you find this note useful

————————————————————–

I have identified myself as a buy and hold investor for a long time. I started investing in late 90s and was looking for a guru/north star at that time. This was the start of the internet era and unlike today, there were no online resources on investing

I came across Warren Buffett through a book –  The Warren Buffett way and was hooked by his persona and investment philosophy. As it usually happens, once you admire someone, you tend to follow almost everything they say or do

Buy and Hold (or hope?)

One of the core tenets of Buffett’s philosophy has been buy and hold. I have embraced this philosophy whole heartedly in the last 20 years. Even though there was a degree of blind faith in following this approach, I have been amply rewarded for it

Over the course of time, as I have thought about it, I have realized some nuances to it. This has made me question if buy and hold (as I practice) makes sense in ALL cases

The precondition to the buy and hold philosophy is that you buy a great business with great management and hold for the long term to benefit from compounding. If either condition is not met, one should not buy the business in the first place

I have often made the mistake of defaulting to buy and hold inspite of the management or business being below average instead of selling and moving on

Why is selling tough?

The reason is not difficult to see – selling is tough and there is always regret in hindsight. No matter what logic you use, there is always something to regret about

For example

  • Follow a valuations-based sell approach and you get the case of Vinati organics where one should have done nothing
  • Don’t follow the valuations/stage of the cycle approach and you get Piramal enterprises or Edelweiss where you overstay you position and lose all your gains and some
  • Make a mistake in evaluating a business and don’t exit promptly and you get Shemaroo ent with an 70% loss
  • If you like the business and management, but keep holding on, waiting for the business to turn, you end with an opportunity loss as with Thomas cook (I) ltd
  • Sell early and you may end up with a Balaji amines and miss out on a multi bagger

I cannot think of an example where I did not have any regret. When one faces this situation, the natural tendency is to do NOTHING and hope it will all work out. I am trying to avoid that now

Make mistakes and fix them

We sold IEX and reduced our position in Laurus labs recently. If these stocks keep rising, I will regret selling early. I will make decisions against my natural instincts, expecting to wrong a few times.  If I am wrong, such as in the case of IEX or Laurus labs, we can always turn around and buy the stock again.

If I am accused of flip flopping, I consider that as a compliment. My loyalty is to the portfolio and you (the subscribers) and not to the stock or the company we hold

Ps: In the list of companies above, I have shared the worst of my decisions in the last 10 years. There are more and it’s a long list. You can accuse me of making dumb decisions from time to time, but no one can say that we try to hide them. All my decisions and thinking can be accessed here and my public blog

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Looks can be deceptive

By Rohit Chauhan
In Investment process
September 4, 2021
3 Min read
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L

Following is from a note published to subscribers. Hope you find it useful

It may appear that our outperformance is from how well we do in an upcycle. That is not entirely true. let me share some stats

Losing less than the indices

I have no preference for any particular market cap but tend to avoid the smallest companies from a risk and liquidity standpoint. Outside of that, any company is fair game for our portfolio

If you look at the table above, one period of outperformance stands out. In 2018 and 2019, when the market went south, we lost much lesser than the market

We were outperforming when it did not appear that way. Losing less than the market in bear markets is also an achievement, even though it may not appear to be. Some of the subscribers who joined us during this period, threw in the towel before the market turned as they did not agree with that notion.

The period of 2018-2020 was not an easy one. I made some of the worst mistakes of my investing career –  Shemaroo, Edelwiess Financial services and Thomas cook (sat on it for too long). These losses are seared into my memory. When you lose your own money and that of your family, it is not easy to forget

In spite of these mistakes, we lost much lesser than the indices. The key was to keep our heads down, keep working and wait for the tide to turn. It was also important to have some extra cash in place

Regular theme

The last few years are NOT an aberration. This has occurred regularly, and it will occur again. You can take the following as a given

  • We will lose money from time to time, at individual stock and portfolio level, even though I am focused on not losing money, which includes my own
  • There will be long stretches of underperformance with sudden spurts of outperformance
  • Returns will be lumpy and unpredictable
  • If you do not have the patience to stick around, you may exit at the wrong time

Let me share another metric to underscore my point

The model portfolio is up around 50% from 15th Jan 2018 to 30 Jun 2021. What is special about these two dates? The small cap index peaked on first and then went into downturn. It regained this peak again this year.

We are up 50% from peak to peak

The key is to evaluate performance is to do it over a cycle and not from the bottom to the top of a cycle (when everyone looks like a genius) or from top of a cycle to the bottom, when any outperformance is hidden

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The Momentum mindset

By Rohit Chauhan
In Investment process
October 4, 2020
4 Min read
1 comment
T

From my recent note to subscribers

I have spent the last 9-12 months digging deeper into other approaches to investing. I have read up on the momentum style, technical analysis, trading, options and more. The reason was to understand how other investors think

It is easy to become dogmatic about your approach and think only you have access to the ultimate truth. I have been guilty of that. I have seen a few value investors (including friends) talk about these other approaches and that intrigued me to dive deeper.

It has given me a better appreciation of these other styles and understand (NOT predict) the price movement in stocks much better.

I have defined my approach as value investing – buying companies for less than their intrinsic value and then holding them for the long term (2-3 years).  This approach involves deep analysis of the business and its prospects. However an under-appreciated aspect of value investing is the time horizon.

Value investing or in other words convergence of price to value of a company, usually happens in 2+ years. In the short term markets are quite efficient and tend to price the near term quite well. The gap (if there is any) usually closes over the long run.

The approach is sound and has worked for a long time. What has changed ofcourse is the definition of value. If you still follow the traditional approaches of PE, P/B ratios and so on, then you will not do well as markets and economies have evolved a lot in the last 15-20 years.

In comparison, other approaches such as Momentum (where you buy stocks which have done well recently in terms of price performance) have worked quite well in the recent past. This approach is practiced more widely in India and there are a lot of very successful practitioners. The difference however extends beyond just the approach. It also involves a shorter time horizon and a difference in temperament.

Although the upside is good, this approach comes with its own risk in the form of momentum crashes. Investors who practice this form of investing have a methodology (rules based or otherwise) to exit their positions when the momentum turns to reduce the downside.

This often means changing your view and portfolio positions overnight. It is important to recognize which approach fits your temperament and which positions make sense for it. The worst thing to do is to buy a momentum stock with a value investing framework.

The momentum mindset

Even though I am not picking stocks based on momentum (yet), I want to build that mindset into my decision making process. The trading or momentum mindset is more rational, even more so when it is rules based.

Investors who follow the non-discretionary approach in momentum or trading, exit their positions when their system gives the signal to do so. Their effort is to back test the system and validate it. However once that confidence is developed, it is followed with discipline.

On the contrary investors like me, tend to get wrapped up too much with our narratives (or stories). As result, even when external conditions change, we tend to stick to our outdated stories and refuse to exit the position.

I have been guilty of this and even when I do change my mind, tend to get emails accusing me of abandoning a stock as if we should remain married to it forever.

I have been re-thinking my approach and you could see a higher turnover or exits even where I was optimistic or positive earlier. Some of you will hate me for taking small losses when I am wrong. I will treat that as an occupation hazard.

It is far better to take a small loss initially than lose much more later.

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Stress testing the portfolio

By Rohit Chauhan
In General thoughts, Investment process, Risk management
April 18, 2020
3 Min read
1 comment
S

< Company names and details of the same have been removed>

To all subscribers,

I have been asked about the impact of the ongoing epidemic (Covid19) on our portfolio companies. I have been doing this analysis and this note is to describe the process. This is a probabilistic exercise which depends on the following factors

  • How long will the lock down last?
  • Will the lock down be lifted in phases (both in terms of time and geography)
  • How will this event impact consumer behavior (short and long term)?

All the above factors are important, but unknowable for now. We have a range of guesses floating around with unknown probabilities. Instead of trying to guess what is going to happen, I have tried to analyze this situation in a different fashion. I have broken down the problem into three-time buckets with a specific set of questions for each bucket

Short term bucket (3months)

  • Does the company face bankruptcy risk (due to zero revenue)
  • What is the liquidity situation for the company? In other words, does the company have enough cash/ access to credit to tide over this period

Medium term bucket (3-9 months)

  • What is the break even revenue for the company at which it can it can sustain its manpower expenses and mandatory overheads (rent, power etc)

Long term bucket (> 9 months)

  • Is the long term demand for the company impacted by this event?
  • Will the consumer behavior change permanently such that the company’s business model will be impacted?

The above questions are crude approximations and I am not trying to come up with a numerical impact on fair values. I have seen some analyst reports where they have changed the target price by X%. Putting a number, does not change the fact that this is still a guess.

Some of the conference calls by company managements show that they are also grappling with the unknown and do not have visibility on the numbers. To assume that an outside investor can do better is silly.

I have evaluated these questions using the following data points

  • Liquidity risk/ Credit report from ratings agencies
  • Company annual reports/ financial statements to evaluate how long the company can survive with zero revenue and the level of topline needed for break even
  • Management commentary

The stocks in the model portfolio are arranged based on their risk profile. This sequence is again a rough approximation of the risk. What this means is that company 2 is not more risky than Company 1, but Company 2 has lower risk than Company 14 which is at the bottom of the portfolio.

Dynamic situation

The impact on each company will depend on how long the lockdown lasts, whether it is consumer facing and the fragility of its balance sheet. In our case, most of our portfolio companies (other than financials) have low to zero debt. There is only one position which has high debt levels and is exposed to the consumer. As a result, this company is the lowest in the model portfolio and has been on hold much before the current situation (old subscribers including me continue to hold it).

I will be addressing a few more topics in my next post with the above framework in mind.

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Avoiding failure

By Rohit Chauhan
In Investment process, Rejected investment ideas
January 17, 2020
5 Min read
3 comments
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The following is from my annual letter to subscribers. I will be posting the letter soon on the blog

There are a few irrefutable statistics of the India stock market. Over the last 10-year period around 50% of small caps (and roughly the same for midcap), lost money for their investors. Only 10% of the companies in this space accounted for most of the returns of the index.

In such a scenario, rejecting stocks is an equally important task in building a portfolio.

We have been focused on this aspect from the beginning of the model portfolio but have not discussed it in depth. The last two years has brought this factor into the spotlight and I want to share the process we use to filter ‘out’ stocks.

The first step in filtering out stocks is quite simple. I look at an idea and reject it if any of the following conditions are met

  1. Management has past record of illegal actions or are known for bad governance practices. This is a subjective criterion, but one can filter out the obvious cases
  2. Debt equity (other than financials) is greater than 1.5
  3. PE is greater than 60
  4. Company operates in an industry with poor economics (return on capital over a business cycle has been below 5%)
  5. IPOs

Some of you may look at this and point out that ‘so and so’ company has been a value creator in spite of meeting some of these conditions.

To this my response is this – An elimination process works on probabilities. If you pick 100 companies which have a very high PE or very high debt, 80% or more will lose money for their shareholders. There will always be some which buck the trend.

I am not trying to win an intellectual contest of picking a winner with odds stacked against it. If you play this game long enough, the probabilities eventually catch up with you.

If the idea survives this step, I move on to the next series of checks. These checks are detailed out in the spreadsheet I upload for every company. I have extracted the specific sections used to reject an idea and uploaded here for reference.

Please keep in mind these checks are not quantitative and there is no mathematical formulae which will throw up an answer. Think of these points as checklist/questions to dig deeper into the company

  1. Fragility – I added this section recently and use it to check whether the business would collapse if some of these risks materialize. For example – Does the company have a major concentration with a single customer or supplier. What will happen if this partner pulls out?
  2. Management checklist – I have had this section for a long time and have added to it over the years. There are sub-sections to check if the management actions have been ‘suspect’ in the past and point to unethical behavior
  3. Accounting – This has an exhaustive list of possible accounting games companies play. I have created this from multiple books on financial fraud and accounting malpractices. 2018/19 had a few repeats and some new ways of fudging accounts
  4. Risk analysis – I added this section a few years back and it is for a deeper analysis of risks and their probabilities.

As you can see from the file, this is a checklist to ensure that I don’t miss something obvious. At the same time, this will not prevent mistakes from happening. A management may be able to hide some of its behavior for a long time and it may come to light after we make an investment.

These points are not black and white and involve a judgement call on where to draw the line. In the past, I have been more tolerant of management behavior, but have realized that even if a particular idea works out, the long term average of such decisions will be disappointing ( I have called this riding a tiger in the past)

As you will note, this process works on evidence or past history of a company and its management. If that is missing, we are flying in the dark. This is another reason for me to avoid IPOs. In most IPOs, the business has been dressed up for sale and all the skeletons tumble out after the listing.

The aggregate performance of all the IPOs in the last 2 years bears this point. Pointing out a few successes, only proves that they are the exceptions and not the rule.

The downside of this process is that I may end up rejecting a company which turns out to be a success. I am comfortable with that problem as long as I can avoid failures. A portfolio of 20 companies out of a universe of 3000+ stocks means that will we miss a lot of winners.

The more important criteria is to avoid the losers.

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End of the promoter put

By Rohit Chauhan
In Advisory letter, Investment process, Views on news
July 18, 2019
3 Min read
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E

Let’s look at the most basic of accounting equations (simplified)

Shareholder equity + Net Liabilities = Net assets

Net liabilities in this case are the on-balance sheet items such as debt, Account payables etc. In addition, there are also some off-balance sheet items such as contractual lease payment, accrued compensation etc. On the asset side, we have the obvious assets such as fixed assets, current assets and cash.

It’s an axiom or truth that the above equation needs to balance out. However, the Indian markets have long violated this axiom. There have been several instances where promoters created dubious or nonexistent assets via debt, defaulted on the debt and were still able to keep equity/ control in the firm.

This is slowly becoming a thing of the past.

The recent introduction of IBC and formation of the NCLT, means that once a company defaults on its debt, the debt holder can take the company to the bankruptcy court. Once that happens, the court can liquidate the firm (sell all the assets) and re-pay the debt holder. Whatever is left after paying all the debt and other claimants, is available to the equity owner.

In the past, the promoter could arm twist the debt holders and thus retain the value of equity. This is no longer possible now.

The 1934 edition of security analysis by Benjamin graham, long considered the bible of value investing, cover bankruptcy and net asset type of investing in detail. After the 1930s depression in the US, a lot of firms were available for less than net asset value (net value after deducting all liabilities). An enterprising investor could take control of such a company, liquidate all assets (often at a discount) and make more than the amount invested.

Although the concept holds true, that world no longer exists today. Most companies create value based on intangibles such as customer relationship/ brands etc. The tangible assets on the book are not worth much as standalone assets and even less in a fire sale. In most bankruptcy proceeding such assets sell for 20-30% of book value.

There have been exceptions to the above in case of some steel companies where assets have sold for 60%+. If you take most other companies in bankruptcy proceedings such as Jet airways, the assets on the book will fetch not more than 30-40% of their value.

If the above numbers are valid, then in most cases, the debt holder takes a haircut and is able to make 40-50 cents on the dollar if the business remains in operation (under a different management). If the business is liquidated, then the recovery is even less.

In all these cases, the equity holder gets nothing at all.

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Hypothesis and bets

By Rohit Chauhan
In Investment process
June 5, 2019
4 Min read
2 comments
H

I recently wrote this note to subscribers as part of a company analysis. I have removed names for obvious reason, but the point I am making remains valid.

—————

This is a good example of how most ideas work (if they are successful). It takes time and patience to stick around for a thesis to play out. The stock market is an efficient place and one should not assume that other investors are idiots. In most cases the market is right and is discounting the near-term results into the price. As a result, it may undervalue a company which has good long-term growth prospects but is facing temporary challenges.

The job of an investor is to evaluate if the challenges are temporary or permanent. If you think it is temporary, then it makes sense to start investing into the company via a small position. The reason for starting with a small position is to be open to the possibility that one is wrong about the hypothesis.

I have a reason why I always use the word hypothesis. It has a precise meaning. It does not mean a forecast or a guess. It means possibility or ‘what can happen’. The future is always indeterminate and as an investor one needs to consider the range of possibilities.

Think bets

This means that one starts with a small bet and raises the bet as more data comes in. This is the equivalent of starting with a small bet in poker and raising your hand as new cards open up (information comes in). If the data or cards do not fall your way – you fold your hand or sell out of the position.

If you have watched poker, you would have noticed that even the best players fold a lot of hands when they realize that the cards have not come their way, or they have made a mistake. Investing is similar. If you have made a mistake or data comes in such that the negative scenario appears more likely, then you reduce the size of the bet or fold your hand.

On the contrary, If the data starts pointing to the optimistic scenario (growth is returning back, ROCE is improving etc), then we start raising the size of the bet or in other words our position size.

This is what I am doing all the time – taking an initial position with a few hypotheses in mind and then raising or dropping the position size based on how the company performs or how the data comes in.

In some cases, the favorable scenario (which in my view has a higher probability) works out. In the case of company X, as growth returned we have raised the position. In some other cases, the growth and improvement in economics is yet to happen – we have kept the position size the same. In a few cases, if things worsen or if I am wrong, we drop or eliminate the position.

Right expectations

Why I have taken this detour in the quarterly update? I have sometimes received emails expressing surprise that I have turned pessimistic after sounding positive for a long time. In all these cases I am watching the company and industry and as the data changes or some events occur, I have changed my view of the company (sometimes late).

How else should one react? Should I just stick to my view so that I appear all confident and smart while I drive our portfolio and capital over the cliff? For our collective sakes, I hope that I can avoid my ego from getting in the way of making rational decisions. In the past, I would fret about it. Now, I just ignore and take the necessary decision irrespective of how I appear to others.

As a side note, there is another pattern you should observe. As the market discounts the next 1-2 years performance correctly, it means that the minimum time it will take for an idea to show results has to be more than that. In 2017, the market was discounting 2018 and early 2019 performance for Company X. As growth improved for FY19 and FY20, the market has taken note of it and started discounting the same.

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