CategoryNotable value investors

What a waste !!

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Rakesh jhunjhunwala is an eminent investor. He is one of the indian investors I follow closely. Recently I found the following interview

I typically read all his interview very closely. He is both an exceptional trader and investor. One of his key approaches to investing is to understand the business model of a company, identify the underlying trend and buy meaninful portions of the company (invest heavily). His investments in praj industries and Titan have been based on this approach.

There several other facets to his investing. He is also an exceptional trader. If you have followed rakesh closely and have of an idea of this brilliant investor, the interview above strikes as completely stupid. The interviewer keeps asking the man about where the market is headed, whether the market will go up or down. Now even an investor like warren buffett has stated that it is a foolish endavour to predict the market in the short term and in the interview rakesh seems to saying something on similar lines. He seems to have an opionion on which he trades, but even he cannot predict. His approach seems to be to trade opportunistically. At the same time he has a deep knowledge of various businesses, their business models and invests based on that knowledge.

Instead of trying to help the reader/ viewer to get behind rakesh’s thinking, the entire interview is about predicting the market. What a waste !!

In addition to rakesh jhunjhunwala, I follow these indian ‘super-investors’ closely

a. Chandrakant sampath
b. Rakesh damani (I may not have got his name right)
c. Chetan parekh (his website capitalideasonline.com is a must read)
d. Prof. Sanjay bakshi

I make it a point to read their interviews and listen to their views closely. I may not blindly follow them, but there is a lot to learn from these brilliant investors.

A must read interview by prof bakshi

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I admire prof. Bakshi, have read all his articles and read his blog regularly. He is a great teacher and it would have been great if I had been his student. I found this interview on capital ideas online. Unfortunately only part of the interview is available and the rest is available only to subscribers.

I would recommend reading the interview. On reading the section under cash bargains, I was almost nodding my head in agreement. I have posted a few cash bargains like novartis, cheviot company and merck earlier. I plan to re-read security analysis by benjamin graham and further expand the scope of my search for investment ideas.

In addition, my own thinking has started expanding to include graham type situations more. The reason is that buffett type companies are diffcult to find and require a lot of indepth understanding of the business to make a meaningful investment. Looking back at my stock screens, I realise that I left a lot of bargains on the table because they were mediocore businesses. These businesses were selling below intrinsic value and although the intrinsic value did not expand, a convergence of the current price with intrinsic value yielded good results.

A move to expand into graham type stocks has increased the number of my investment ideas. However this type of investing means a higher portfolio turnover and a constant search for cheap stocks as one may not be able to buy a great company at a decent price and enjoy the benefits of an increase in the instrinsic value.

This does not mean that I am not looking for the buffett type good companies. It is just that I am trying to let go of my mental blocks to other types of companies and other types of investing. Who knows I may overcome my aversion to trading too 🙂

A request – If any one reading this post has access to the full interview, I would request you to email me the link or the interview itself (id : rohitc99@indiatimes.com)

update : 4th june : i have recieved the complete interview by email. thanks to sajeesh mathew for that. It is a great interview and i learnt a lot from it. I will have to confirm with sajeesh and prof bakshi if it fine to email the interview to others. I would definitely not be posting it

Value Traps

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I think every value investor dreads a value trap which is basically a company, which seems cheap by historical standards and the gap between the price and the supposed intrinsic value does not close.

I found the following very useful comment from bill miller (he is a very famous money manager in the US whose fund has beaten the index for a straight 15 years)

“You never know for certain, but the nature of value traps is, they tend to have certain characteristics. Typically, one is that the valuation of the business or the industry is lower than its historical norms. The company or business normally has a fairly long history, so the historical normal valuations provide a lot of comfort. Therefore, when you get down toward the lower end of these valuations, value people find them attractive. The trap comes in when there’s a secular change, where the fundamental economics of the business are changing or the industry is changing, and the market is slowly incorporating that into the stock price. So that would be the case over the last several years with newspapers. They are a good example of where historical valuation metrics aren’t working.”

The complete article is here

In addition found the following interesting quote from warren buffett

“Margin of Safety is the untapped pricing power in a business.”

The warren buffett of India

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Chandrakant sampat is rightly called the warren buffett of india. See his profile here

I just read this
interview with him where he has given his thoughts on the market. It’s a must read

A few excerpts from the interview

A few months back, I was looking at a table of 100 Indian companies ranked by return on capital employed (RoCE). At some point, these stocks were quoting at eight-year lows, which is strange. Look at Siemens. It did an eight-year low and now it’s quoting at Rs 5,000. Tata Steel was down at Rs 40-50 and now, after adjusting for bonus, it’s Rs 700-800. Of this set of companies, if investors pick up something quoting at a 10-year low, it appreciates 10 times.
Pick up good companies with good managements when their share prices are at an eight-year or 10-year low. Alternatively, if you still want to do something, buy good companies that are 40 per cent lower than their 52-week high. I will buy only those companies that…

• Are in a business that even fools can understand

• Have very little debt
• Have free cash flows
• Don’t have much capital expenditure, which is nothing but deferred cost

So, the companies you say are growing, are they really growing? The answer is ‘no’. They have to keep all deferred costs aside, they can’t declare hefty dividends, as the future costs. So, that’s another lesson — buy stocks that have minimal capital expenditure.

I have put a few more articles and interviews with chandrakant sampat below

Indiainfoline interview

Businessline interview

Rediff interview

The wisdom of Martin Whitman

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Found the following article on capitalideasonline (bold emphasis and italic comments are mine)

In an investment classic “Greatest Investing Stories”, there is a brilliant piece on Martin Whitman.

“We don’t carry a lot of excess baggage,” he says in the flatted vowels of his native Bronx. “A lot of what Wall Street does has nothing to do with the underlying value of a business. We deal in probabilities, not predictions.”

“The record entitles him to argue that “There are only two kinds of passive investing, value investing and speculative excess.” For the last two years, like 1928-1929 and 1972-1972,” continues Whitman, “we’ve had nothing but speculative excess.”

“These days, argues Whitman, management has to be appraised not only as operators of a going business, “but also as investors engaged in employing and redeploying assets.”

“As a long-term investor looking to a number of possible exit strategies, Whitman glories in the freedom to ignore near-term earnings predictions and results. Acidly, he argues that Wall Street spends far too much time “making predictions about unpredictable things.”

“His search is for companies backed by strong financials that will keep them going through hard times (“safe”), selling at a substantial discount below private business or takeover value (“cheap”). Buying quality assets cheap almost invariably means that the company’s near-term results are rocky enough to have turned off Wall Street. “Markets are too efficient for me to hope that I’d be able to get high-quality resources without the trade-off the near-term outlook not being great,” says Whitman. He chuckles and runs a hand through a fringe of white hair. “When the outlook stinks, you may not have to pay to play.”

“It’s a lot better than being called an indexer or an asset allocator,” he says, taking another poke at standard Wall Street dogma.”

“Whitman’s job is to sniff out what is wrong, and figure out the trade-offs against what is right, particularly in terms of some form of potential asset conversion.”

“Among the most common wrongs Whitman tries to avoid:

a) Attractive-seeming highly liquid cash positions that on inspection prove to be in the custody of managements too timid to put surplus assets to good use;
b) Seductively high rates of return on equity that often signal a relatively small asset base;
c) A combination of low returns on equity and high net asset value that may simply mean that asset values are overstated;
d) High net asset values that may point to a potentially sizable increase in earnings, but which just as often point to swollen over-head.

I have seen point b come up in several of my stock screens. Based purely on the screen, the company looks attractive. Digging deeper show some asset write offs which has artifically raised the return on equity.kind of highlights the risk of relying blindly on stock screen (I never do that though, generally using them to generate a finite list of companies to look at deeper)

“Whitman’s willingness to take on companies like the stereotypical “sick, lame, and lazy” he treated as a pharmacist’s mate – the old salt, in Navy slang, still thinks of himself as having been a “pecker checker” – is not unalloyed. Buying seeming trouble at a discount, Whitman ignores market risk (current price swings). Whitman worries all the time, though, about investment risk (the possibility he may have mis-judged a temporary illness that will prove terminal).”

“As smallish niche producers, often protected by proprietary tech­niques, the equipment manufacturers seemed less vulnerable to shake out, and had better “quality” assets. Unlike the far more capital-intensive chip makers, with their heavy investments in bricks and mortar, the equipment producers operate out of comparatively low-cost clean rooms, and buy, rather than make, most of their components. Research and development costs are high, but Whitman cannily focused on com­panies that expensed rather than capitalized them. Those running charges understated earnings, making them seem particularly weak in the down cycle. So much the worse for Wall Street.”

“Whitman continued to buy a cross section of equipment producers at quotes he regarded as “better than even first stage venture capitalists have to pay, and for companies already public and very, very cash rich.”

“Whitman was averaging down, a key part of his strategy, but anathema to Wall Street’s momentum players.”

Should be done only if one is sure of what he is doing and has strong reasons to believe that the market is wrong ( ‘I feel the stock will do better’ does not quality)

“Most,” he thought, “ought to do okay and a few ought to be huge winners, but there would be a few strikeouts.” The exit strategy for the strikeouts, in a consolidating industry, would almost certainly be acquisition.”

“Beyond diversification, Whitman protected himself by loading up on management that fit his two acid tests: good at day-to-day operations and equally good as asset managers.”

“Once again scoffing at market risk, Whitman underlines the com­forts of being cushioned by strong financials. “When you’re in well­-capitalized companies, if they do start to dissipate, you get a chance to get out.” “On the other hand,” he continues, “when you’re in poorly cap­italized companies, you better watch the quarterly reports very closely.”

“That’s because he thinks in terms of multiple markets. What may seem to be a very rich price to an individual investor can be a perfectly reasonable one for control buyers looking to an acquisition. They can afford to stump up a premium because of the advantages control brings. Among them is the ability to finance a deal on easy terms with what Whitman calls “OPM” (Other People’s Money) and “SOTT” (Something Off The Top) in the form of handsome salaries, options, and other good­ies that come with general access to the corporate treasury.”

Read the book ‘Value Investing : A Balanced Approach’ for a better understanding of multiple market referred to by martin whitman.

“Shop depressed industries for strong financials going cheap and hang on. By strong financials Whitman means companies with little or no debt and plenty of cash. What’s cheap? No hard and fast rules. “Low prices in terms of the resources you get,” he generalizes.”

“Some of his other pricing rules of thumb:

a) For small cap, high-tech companies, a premium of no more than 60 percent over book – about what venture capitalists would pay on a first stage investment.
b) For banks, Whitman’s limit is no more than 80 percent of book value.
c) For money managers, Whitman looks to assets under management (pay no more than two percent to three percent).
d) For real estate companies, he zeros in on discounted appraised values rather than book.”

Good reference point to look at when doing your own valuations for any of these type of companies

“Whitman, thumbing his nose at convention, has clearly established himself as an outside force on Wall Street. Despite the philosophical linkage, he even backs off from identification with what he calls Graham & Dodd Fundamentalists. The basic similarities are striking: long-term horizons, a rigorous analytic approach to the meaning behind reported numbers, and an unshakeable belief that probabilities favor those who buy quality at the lowest possible price. Like Ben Graham, Whitman scoffs at the academicians who hold that stock prices are set by a truly knowledgeable and efficient market. Acknowledging his debt to Graham, Whitman argues that his calculated exploitation of exit strategies has added a new dimension to value investing.”

“Whitman says, “I couldn’t be a trader. I’m very slow with numbers. I have to understand what they mean.”

“It’s the art of the possible,” he says. “The aim is not to maximize profits, but to be consistent at low risk. I never mind leaving something on the table.”

“Whitman, look to a credit against the probability of a default. He looks beyond the credit to see what can be got when it does default-yet another variant on “safe and cheap.”

“Whitman backs this contention with a notably unsentimental view of how Wall Street really works. He argues that heavy reliance on short-­term earnings predictions as the key to market values makes trend play­ers of money managers. Such linkages are the stuff of stock market columns. The Genesco shoe chain allows that fourth quarter earnings will “meet or exceed” analysts’ estimates, and the stock pops with a gain of almost 25 percent. Sykes Enterprises, a call-center specialist, signals that earnings will be down, and the stock falls by a third.”

“Making forecasts about future general market levels,” writes Whitman in Value Investing, “is much more in the realm of abnormal psychology than finance.”

“Analysts who focus on earnings trends to the exclusion of asset val­ues, continues Whitman, tend to think laterally. “The past is prologue; therefore, past growth will continue into the future, or even accelerate.” Unfortunately, the “corporate world is rarely linear,” and becomes a particularly dangerous place for trend players who leave no ‘margin of safety in concentrating on high multiple growth stocks.”

“A bargain that stays a bargain isn’t a bargain.”

I think he is refering to a value trap. A company which stays cheap forever either due to poor management or because the intrinsic value is shrinking

Reading a book on Bill miller

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I have been reading a book on bill miller from janet lowe

A few things which I learnt

– It is critical to develop a multi-disciplinary model to evaluate companies. This is getting more important as new companies would have more intangible assets than tangible ones and would depend on network effects / customer lock-in etc to create value (like e-bay). even old economy companies will have some component of new economy companies (think about the website of most retailers )
– Importance of understanding business models of these new economy companies and avoiding slotting them into incorrect categories. Bill miller gives an example of amazon.com which is looked at as a retailer and as a result the market has got it wrong several times. According to miller, business model of amazon is closer to dell than walmart (although amazon is using the same wallmart strategy , but online – keep the gross margins constant and pass the benefits to the consumer to build scale )
– The market typically makes an error in evaluating a new business model and is slow to recognize it (but eventually it does). So an investor like miller who has the foresight , can beat the market on these companies (examples given were for dell and amazon )
– Concepts such as network effects, customer lock-in and increasing returns have been discussed briefly in the book with some example.
– Some example of companies which have both new and old economy models
– The book brings out bill miller’s capability to think independently and stand against the crowd ( there is an incident narrated in the book , where it seems in the baron’s panel , one of member asked if bill was drunk when he bought amazon in 2001 – eventually bill was vindicated on his decision

One the most important points which I learnt from the book was to develop an open mind on the new concepts which are coming up and the way they are being used by value investors like bill miller. The growth v/s value tag seems to be immaterial for any company as long as one can assess the intrinsic value of a company and buy it at a discount. Although I may find it difficult to apply these concepts directly, I think these new concepts would help me analyzing and appreciating the new business models which are developing

Investing rules from Jim Rogers

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Read a very good article on Jim Rogers in capitalideasonline.com . He was a partner with gorge soros , i think, and has published quite a few good books like investment biker etc .
The link is given below
http://www.capitalideasonline.com/articles/index.php?id=1554

some excerpts

Rule 1: Do your own work. Don’t be afraid of being a loner.

“I learned early in my career that if you read the annual reports, you’ve done more than 90% of the people on Wall Street. If you read the notes to the annual report, you’ve done more than 95% of the people on Wall Street, and if you actually sit down and do a spread sheet, you’ve done more than 98% of the people on Wall Street.” (emphasis mine)

Rule 2: Good investors need a historical perspective­.

Rule 3: Think conceptually about the world.

Rule 4: Don’t buy stocks at high multiples.

“I don’t buy them because, by the time they reach a high multiple, it’s probably about time for it to come to an end. Wall Street and politicians are the last to catch on to any­thing,” said Jimmy. He doesn’t sell a stock just because it happens to have a high multiple. He either waits for a fundamental change or for an indication that something is about to go wrong.

Rule 5: Be selective in your investing and look for one good idea.

“The most important trick for getting rich on Wall Street is not to lose money. There are many guys,” he said, “who do well for two years and then get creamed. Wait until you have a winner and are sure. In the meantime, keep your money in treasury bills. Professional money managers feel that they have to do something all the time and are the worst at following this advice.

“Even if you only have one play every ten years, you’re going to do a lot better than most people.”

Rule 6: Every investment should be considered a commodity that will be affected by supply and demand changes. It’s just a question of when.

Everything has its own supply and demand cycle, which may be a twenty-, thirty-, or fifty-year cycle, and every­thing is basically a commodity in the end. American Stan­dard was a great growth stock when people went from outdoor to indoor plumbing, but it isn’t considered one today. Avon, a cosmetics firm, boomed after the war when the country became more affluent. By the late Sixties, Avon had a multiple of 50, and the market was saturated with many competing cosmetics brands.

Rule 7: Every investor should lose some money, because it teaches you about yourself

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