CategoryViews on news

Actions in the Fog of War

A

From my recent note to subscribers,

To all subscribers,

I have been writing to all of you for the last few weeks as I became concerned about the Corona virus Epidemic by the mid to late Feb when our small caps positions started behaving differently.

As I thought through the situation, I could not see a scenario where this epidemic could be stopped without causing a huge disruption to economic activity. That was my reason for saying that Tail risks were not priced into the market.

That scenario is now playing out across the globe. We are seeing shutdown of entire regions now. This is what I meant by economic sudden stop.

If you notice, I arranged all my posts in a neat narrative as if all of this could be predicted with perfect foresight. The reality is that things are moving very fast and continue to be murky. We have yet to see the second and higher order effects of this crisis as it depends on how long the shutdown will continue.

For now, there are all kinds of opinions on how long this will last and when the economy will come back. I think the most important variable is how quickly the spread of this virus is contained across the globe. That is something, no one knows for sure (and everyone hopes is short).

We are making decisions in the fog of war. We will get some of them wrong, but the focus is to get a good percentage right. As you can see in the last few weeks, I have changed my thinking and cash levels in response to the data which was coming in (at a rapid rate). That is likely to continue and as a result, my thinking and decision will change as the situation changes.

The cash level is at 42% of the model portfolio, partly from selling down some of our positions and balance due to the drop in the portfolio. We had closed the year at around 23% cash level and have raised it by 40% in the last few weeks.

I want to share the following actions from a financial standpoint

  • Please ensure that you have at least 6-9 months of cash or FDs so that you can take care of your expenses if there is a loss of income. This will help you remain rational and avoid panic selling to meet expenses.
  • It is going to emotionally tough and gut wrenching to remain invested. Your mind and emotions will scream at you to get out. It will be a torture to put money into the market and lose 20-30% in a matter of days
  • I maintain a list of 200+ companies which I track from time to time. I have been working on this list for the last few weeks and updating them. The buy candidates will be from this list. I am in no hurry to rush in.
  • My focus is not to time the market or pick the bottom for specific companies. I am focused on ensuring that we pick companies which can make it through. If a company survives the next 6-12 months, the stock will do well.
  • I am not too concerned about valuations. At the current rate, valuations are dropping rapidly and if we pick robust companies, then returns will take care of themselves
  • It is a given that I will get the timing wrong. I will either buy too early or too late. I hope you have already realized that and are fine with it.

Tail risks

T

I published this note to subscribers on 12th March, just the day before markets went haywire. I was feeling that Indian markets were not pricing in the Tail risks. That has changed since then. We are now seeing extreme volatility in the markets now.

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I wrote last week about the developing risks around the Corona virus epidemic. The main reason for raising cash was the concern I have around ‘Tail Risks’

What is a Tail Risk ? As per Wikipedia – Tail risk, sometimes called “fat tail risk,” is the financial risk of an asset or portfolio of assets moving more than 3 standard deviations from its current price, above the risk of a normal distribution. Prudent asset managers are typically cautious with tail risk involving losses which could damage or ruin portfolios, and not the beneficial tail risk of outsized gains.

The corona virus represents a tail risk in my mind. Even if we assume the health risk is low (I don’t know about that), the risk of an economic panic is quite high. I have been tracking the US markets and industries which are being hit due to this Epidemic. Industries in the travel and tourism space, have been hit hard. Travel and airline bookings have collapsed and places like Macau (casino in China) have reported an 87% drop in bookings.

The recent PMI (purchasing manager’s index) for China reported an all time low (lower than 2008). In effect economic activity is at a standstill in China (and now in Italy too). There are reports that it is re-starting, but it would take time as people are not going to forget about this event overnight and resume all the normal activities.

The bigger concern now is the spread of the virus in Europe and US (where it has been handled very poorly). US has been behind the curve and has yet to resume large scale testing. When that happens, the number of cases could increase, leading to slowdown in the economic activity. The US market is already starting to discount these concerns

Adding fuel to the fire

There could not have been a worse time for a large bank to Fail. Yes Bank which was on a life support, was finally taken over by the government (sort of). There is a moratorium on  withdrawals by depositors as RBI works through resolving the situation. SBI is likely to invest around 2500 Crs for a 49% stake with the rest coming from other investors.

I have serious concerns about this event. In response I wrote the following on twitter

The true franchise value of a bank is on the liability side – aka trust of the depositor. The depositor is your true customer from whom you make money – Interest spread (NIM) and other income from selling financial products. Lose the depositor and value of a bank = 0

If you want to ‘save’ a bank, ensure that the depositors have 100% faith on the bank. No doubts, ifs, buts and maybe. Look at how FDIC in the US resolves troubled banks. It comes from the experience of bank failures in the 1930s during depression

The long-term risk with the way Yes bank has been rescued, is the loss of Trust of ‘depositors’ with the banking system. Giving aspirin to a patient with cardiac arrest does not help. As Yoda once said – Do or Do not, there is no Try

I am very concerned the way this Bail out has been in done. In the US, such bailouts are done by the FDIC swiftly, without the customer realizing that ownership has changed until much later. Typically, FDIC agents land up at a troubled bank on a Friday, take over the bank and change the management over the weekend. When the bank opens on Monday, there is no change for the end customer. For them, there are no restrictions on withdrawals and life goes on as usual. A few days later they are informed that the bank name or owner has changed which has zero impact on them.

The above approach which was developed during the 1930s depression to avoids panic and helps in resolving a failed bank without causing a run on it.

In the case of Yes bank, the restriction on withdrawals mean that customers will continue to withdraw till they have their entire money out. Put yourself in a customers’ shoe – why would you risk your life savings/ cash with a small upside and the risk (even if imagined) of losing it all.

Is this an IL&FS repeat

The unfortunate answer is yes and this time around the general public has been impacted. When IL&FS collapsed, the impact was felt by corporates, NBFCs and mutual funds (debt funds). The general public was not impacted to the same extent.

This time around the impact is being felt by a much wider segment of the population. I believe that the government will not let the bank fail (as they have stated) and depositors will not lose money. However, the trauma of seeing your money blocked for a period of time will be high. A bank depositor never signs up for this.

The timing for this event is very unfortunate. IL&FS happened when the global economy was moving along fine. We have a major event occurring globally and now the problem with Yes bank is sure to add to the risk aversion.

Expect volatility

I exited/ reduced our position in financials and avoided any further investments in financials in 2019. We are seeing a repeat of sept 2018 now in the form of price reaction. The difference is that our exposure to the financial services space is much lower and hence the impact for us is muted.

As it occurred in 2018, the impact of these events will be felt in the coming months and in surprising places . Our portfolio will be impacted by these events and I don’t think there is any place to hide (other than cash).

If you are not fully invested and plan to add based on the model portfolio, I would recommend staggering your purchases. In terms of the cash in the portfolio, I plan to add new positions in the coming weeks/ months. I am not in a hurry to do so. We will take our time and not try to pick the bottom of this market. The key will be to invest in companies which can survive the tough environment and thrive when the tide turns.

Gloom and Doom

G

This was written to subscribers recently

It’s an understatement to say that things are getting scarier by the day in the stock market

We are seeing companies drop 20% or so in a matter of days (or sometimes in a day itself). I started reducing our positions in late 2017 as I became concerned with the valuations. However, I had no clue (and neither did anyone) that things would start falling apart in 2019. As a result, in hindsight we should have gone higher into cash. Please note the word hindsight which keeps coming up.

In the last two years we have exited the weaker positions where I was concerned about the business or management. We re-deployed some of that capital back into other positions, resulting in the same level of cash at the portfolio level. We will continue with this process in the future.

It reminds me of the famous bullet dodging scene in the movie ‘matrix’ – The hero -Neo manages to dodge multiple bullets from an agent, but one still gets him. In our case we have been able to dodge some, but got hit by a few inspite of our best efforts.

This dynamic now seems to be changing for the worse. There will be no dodging now.

Risks are rising

The drop we are seeing in the market seems to be pointing to something deeper. We are seeing a liquidity squeeze from multiple factors such as the NBFC crisis, high NPA in the system and possible global issues such as capital flight to the US dollar. There could be other issues too and your guess is as good as mine. In the end the reason does not matter.

The troubling part is that we are yet to see a major market meltdown in the US and other foreign market. I usually don’t talk much about macro issues but keep an eye on them. I will not go into various issues such negative bond yields across the board, inverting yield curves and other mumbo jumbo but say that the odds of a global recession are increasing. Combine this with trade issues and high debt levels, and we have a higher risk of a meltdown.

The above is not a given, but if it happens, we will feel the repercussions in India too.It could get worse if the system gets a macro shock.

I am not writing all of this to alarm you further. I don’t see an end of world scenario or anything of that sort. However, we need to understand the context of what is happening around us. It is easy to talk of a long-term view, but we may have to go through a lot of pain in the interim

Let’s look at the case of one of our holding. The company has dropped by 20% for no apparent reason. As we have done in the past lets invert the problem and look at reasons for the sale

< Company details and analysis has been deleted for this post >

A debt default or any other fraud will cause a steep drop in the stock price. However, it does not mean that a drop in the stock price is only due to management fraud or default.

A logical fallacy

I get emails from subscribers asking me for a reason after every such drop. If we continue to have market drops, we would see sudden drops in our stocks too. These drops could be due to various reasons – business, debt issues, margin calls, or fear induced selling.

One cannot find the reason for every case, nor can one generalize it to corporate governance or some other issue. We try our best to filter out unethical management before starting a position. However, it does not mean that we will avoid all of them. When we realize that we have made a mistake in terms of the business, management or under-estimated the risk, we will reduce the position or exit as we have done in the past.

I can assure you I am always alert to what is happening to our companies and their stock price. In most of the cases, I choose not to react by choice.

In the coming months, we could have more drops with some extreme ones too. Unless there is a fundamental issue with the business or management, I plan to bear these quotational losses. I have gone through such times in 2000 and 2008 and can tell you it is very painful to watch your portfolio get decimated. The only way forward is to have a sense of long-term optimism even when things around us are falling apart.

I have not invested the cash we hold till now. I want to wait patiently till we get some good bargains, which happens only when the news keeps getting worse. I hope you will have the courage and faith to invest at that time.

End of the promoter put

E

Let’s look at the most basic of accounting equations (simplified)

Shareholder equity + Net Liabilities = Net assets

Net liabilities in this case are the on-balance sheet items such as debt, Account payables etc. In addition, there are also some off-balance sheet items such as contractual lease payment, accrued compensation etc. On the asset side, we have the obvious assets such as fixed assets, current assets and cash.

It’s an axiom or truth that the above equation needs to balance out. However, the Indian markets have long violated this axiom. There have been several instances where promoters created dubious or nonexistent assets via debt, defaulted on the debt and were still able to keep equity/ control in the firm.

This is slowly becoming a thing of the past.

The recent introduction of IBC and formation of the NCLT, means that once a company defaults on its debt, the debt holder can take the company to the bankruptcy court. Once that happens, the court can liquidate the firm (sell all the assets) and re-pay the debt holder. Whatever is left after paying all the debt and other claimants, is available to the equity owner.

In the past, the promoter could arm twist the debt holders and thus retain the value of equity. This is no longer possible now.

The 1934 edition of security analysis by Benjamin graham, long considered the bible of value investing, cover bankruptcy and net asset type of investing in detail. After the 1930s depression in the US, a lot of firms were available for less than net asset value (net value after deducting all liabilities). An enterprising investor could take control of such a company, liquidate all assets (often at a discount) and make more than the amount invested.

Although the concept holds true, that world no longer exists today. Most companies create value based on intangibles such as customer relationship/ brands etc. The tangible assets on the book are not worth much as standalone assets and even less in a fire sale. In most bankruptcy proceeding such assets sell for 20-30% of book value.

There have been exceptions to the above in case of some steel companies where assets have sold for 60%+. If you take most other companies in bankruptcy proceedings such as Jet airways, the assets on the book will fetch not more than 30-40% of their value.

If the above numbers are valid, then in most cases, the debt holder takes a haircut and is able to make 40-50 cents on the dollar if the business remains in operation (under a different management). If the business is liquidated, then the recovery is even less.

In all these cases, the equity holder gets nothing at all.

Scared ? Worried ?

S

Oil down 50%+, Ruble crashing. Rupee on its way down and maybe  the stock market too !

Worried about your stocks ?
Take a deep breath and ask these questions (I ask some of them and a lot of times the answers I get make me see my mistake)
Are you retiring next year ? If yes, why the hell is that money in the stock market!
Do you understand the business and have confidence in the long term performance of the company ? If not, why did you invest in the first place?
Do you lose sleep from the volatility and quotational loss of your portfolio ? If yes, why are you not in just fixed deposits?
Do you have good health, another source of income and don’t need the money in the next few years ?  If yes, then stop watching the financial news and go back to some more productive activities?
As I said in the previous post, I have a consulting service to provide a list of very productive activities to people who watch too much Financial news !  Call me for a free consultation 🙂
If you think this is new – read this, this and this. This is almost an annual or a once in two year affair. For the some of you who were wishing for bad times, be careful what you wish for! you may finally get it, so better be ready for it.

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Stocks discussed in this post are for educational purpose only and not recommendations to buy or sell. Please contact a certified investment adviser for your investment decisions. Please read disclaimer towards the end of blog.

Analysing ICICI bank – from a depositor’s perspective

A

The major events over the last few weeks created a small scare for some of the Indian banks. The fear was the level of exposure to the Lehman Brothers bankruptcy and the ongoing credit crisis.

Considering that a lot of us including my family and me have our savings with ICICI bank, I decided to have a look at the Annual report of the bank in detail. Following is the analysis of the bank from a depositor’s perspective (and not an investor’s perspective).

Some positives
The bank raised 20000 Crs in 2007. As a result of the issue, the CAR (capital adequacy ratio) now stands at around 14%. The bank has an annual profit of around 4150 Crs and a consolidated profit (including subsidiaries) of around 3100 Crs.

ICICI has several subsidiaries. In aggregate the subsidiaries are making losses, mainly due to the insurance sub. Due to the insurance accounting (expensing the policy expenses in the current year), the insurance subsidiary has been showing increasing losses as it grows. However the subsidiary has value, which is growing. In all, my personal estimate for the valuation of subsidiaries is around 23000 Crs, which is around 30% of market cap and almost 50% of book value

Negatives
The bank has been in the limelight due to the losses incurred by the collapse of Lehman brothers. This has been a case of availability bias. The market has been focused on the dramatic instead of the important (as usual).

The derivative related losses (dramatic) incurred by the bank have been to the tune of around 887 Crs which have been charged to the P&L statement (marked to market) and around 203 Crs, which have been charged to reserves.

AS 30 accounting requires mark to market accounting (and P&L pass-through) for certain derivatives and reserves adjustment for others (read AS30 to understand the details).

At the same time there has been a rise in the Gross NPA from 4850 Crs to 8350 crs. This increase is more important for the bank and its valuation as retail assets account for around 60% of the bank’s assets. However the market did not react strongly to this important change as it is hidden in the Balance sheet. The NPA have increased further in the current quarter. In addition the provision are around 55% of Gross NPA. So there is still an exposure of around 3500 Crs, which could hit the P&L in the future.

accounting is pretty complex
Bank accounting and especially derivative accounting is complex. It is very difficult to make out whether the bank is making or losing money on its entire derivatives exposure at any point of time. The bank discloses the total notional exposure which is atleast 1000 times or more of the net exposure. The profit or loss is a multiple of the net exposure. So it is difficult to figure out the profit or loss on the derivative book based on the bank disclosures alone.

In addition mark to market accounting is also misleading. It is equivalent to drawing your personal profit or loss based on change in share prices. If you think a stock is worth 100 rs, and you bought it for 50 rs and the price dropped to 30, how will you account for it ?

Mark to market accounting says, report a loss of 20 now. If the price jump to 70 in the next quarter then reverse this loss and report an ‘income’ of 40. However you may choose to ignore these swings and say I intend to hold the share for next 3 years and believe the market is mispricing the stock in the interim.

So what is the truth ? frankly there is no objective truth. It depends on the specific instrument and circumstances. Accounting requires being conservative and hence the loss of 20 in the current quarter.

This is the kind of complexity we are dealing with derivatives. The bank may very well have losses on the portfolio or they may right in saying that these are only notional losses as the underlying credits are still intact.

are there solvency issues ?
I think there are no solvency issues for the bank based on the current losses and statements from the bank. The bank has reduced the credit derivatives by almost 800 Mn usd. This does not mean that the bank will not have losses in the future due to derivatives. There is a huge derivatives exposure (notional) on the banks balance sheet.

As of March 2008, the fair value for the derivatives was positive and for interest swap is midly negative (page 116) , so the bank is not losing money on those derivatives (as of march 2008) . However this value may turn negative in the future.

However the point to remember that the bank is making around almost 1000 crs per quarter on a standalone basis. In addition it has a high capital cushion and assets in the form of subsidiaries. So there is a decent amount of capital cushion to absorb any of these losses. There is always a risk of unknown losses hiding in the balance sheet in the derivative books due to black swan events. I frankly cannot evaluate and estimate those losses from publicly available documents.

Finally the trump card for the bank is the concept of ‘Too big to fail’. Do you think the Indian government would risk allowing the bank to fail (second largest bank in the country) and jeopardize the financial system?

valuation based on book value ?
I am amazed at the simplistic valuations done by a lot of people and analysts. For ex: ICICI is selling at X times book value and hence it is a buy !! If you read the Annual report, you will realise the complexity of this company. It would be silly to value the bank based on book value alone
The bank has assets (subsidiaries) and risk (derivative exposure) which are quite difficult to estimate (atleast for me). A simple book value based valuation is a foolish way to value this bank.
The minimum analysis to arrive at the final valuation is to value the bank and its subsidiaries. The derivative exposure and other liabilities need to valued separately and the net value should be derived from the difference. Luckily, investing in stocks is not like exams where I will get flunked for not answering a question. I can always pass on the stock.

Credit crisis – Impact on us

C

The crisis is now full blown. I have not seen panic at this scale personally. I have read about it, but not seen it personally. It almost feels as if companies are being targeted one at a time. Lehman went into bankruptcy and AIG just survived through government help, though equity holders have been wiped out (almost). Now it seems the market has moved on to Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs and Washington mutual. It almost feels as if the market is killing one company at a time. Scary!

How does it impact us in India?
I think, the impact would initially be limited to companies with Global businesses. So IT companies with revenues in this space could get hit in the short term. However I think it should work out for these companies in the medium to long term as they find new clients, geographies and start growing again. The business model for IT companies is not under threat. However in the short run, IT companies are and could keep getting hit. However I would be worried about small IT companies with high exposure to the Financial and associated sector.

The next in line to get hit could be banks like ICICI bank and others, which have foreign operations and derivatives on their balance sheets. I am currently analyzing ICICI bank and I can tell you that complexity for most banks have gone up. As I wrote earlier, I exited banks quite some time back when I realized that I could not evaluate the risks correctly. That said, I think none of the Indian banks are under serious solvency threat. The profits could get hit, but most of the Indian banks do not have massive exposure of derivatives. I am analyzing ICICI and other banks from a depositor’s point of view and not from an equity investment point of view. So I am looking at these banks from a safety point of view.

Other than the above two sectors, I cannot think of any broad sectors, which could get hit hard by this crisis.

Second order and higher order effects
What is missed out in most analysis, is the second and higher order effects of an event. Indian companies may not get hit directly, but a recession in developed countries and lack of liquidity and risk aversion is bound to affect us in the medium term.

For the last, 3-4 years almost every asset class in India has gone up. There were all kinds of reasons given for this rise, but rarely was liquidity mentioned as one of the key reasons. Now with the liquidity drying up, I don’t think we will be seeing such double-digit growths in Real estate and other markets.

What am I doing?
I don’t get worried about drops in stock prices. Such drops are a part of the game. When I invest in equity, my main worry is permanent loss of capital and not temporary losses due to volatility.
Personally, I had put my buying on hold for the last couple of months. For some reason, I felt that the markets could go south in the medium term. As a result I stopped buying some time back. However I did not back this hunch by going short, as I may very well may have been wrong. I did buy some puts, but did not build a decent position as I was not sure. I think I should start trusting my gut more.

I am still standing pat and not planning major activity for some time. I personally don’t expect these issues to get worked out in a few weeks and feel that I could be getting better bargains in the near future.

I have a question and would appreciate if some could answer, as I have not been able to figure it out – If the bank/ DP fails, what happens to my shares. Is it similar to a savings account where you can lose your savings or are the shares held by NSDL or someone else and hence I am safe?

A failure a week

A

First it was Bear stearns, but the US treasury (similar to our Finance ministry) and the Fed (similar to our RBI) engineered a bailout. Bear stearns, an investment bank was bought out by J P morgan, a commerical bank, in March. This bailout was done to calm the markets and reduce systemic risk.

Well, next in line were Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae which were nationalized (federal takeover) for the same reason last week. Now this week it is the turn of Lehman brothers which seems to be on the verge or ready to file for bankruptcy protection. Merrill lynch, another Investment bank and brokerage, is in merger talks with Bank of america. After Lehman brothers, Merrill lynch seems to be the weakest firm and so it could come under attack.

More companies at risk
AIG, one of the largest insurers has fallen by 30% and is at risk now. So is washington mutual, another large bank. So we have a situation where the credit crisis (acutally bad investments on part of the banks and institutions) is now engulfing the financial system. Finally the S*** is hitting the fan !

We could very well see a domino effect and the US government may decide not to bail out any more companies. We could be in for some nasty times.

What does it mean for us ?
So how does it effect us ? Well if you are into medium to long term investing, not much. Actually the panic could create opportunities for us in india. I really don’t see Indian companies getting impacted (other than IT or export oriented companies due to a possible recession in the US and other economies). The impact for IT companies in the long run should not be too much. However there could a short term impact in companies with a high percentage of revenue in the BFSI segment.

All this mess, makes you wonder what kind of risk our banks and financial services firms are taking. I am repeatedly reminded of this statement by warren buffett

‘When you combine ignorance with leverage you get some pretty interesting results’

Infosys accquisition of Axon group: My view point

I

Infosys recently announced the accquisition of the Axon group. Most of the analysis I have seen is centred around whether the deal is EPS accretive or dilutive. I think this kind of analysis is superficial and misses the point. A deal can be EPS dilutive and still be adding value and vice versa (more on that in a later post).

In this specific case, Infosys is accquiring an ERP (SAP in this case) consulting firm with net margins of around 10%. ERP consulting is a high margin, high growth business for Infosys. The typical gross margins are sometimes in excess of 50%.

How do I know ? disclosure : I worked with infosys in their ERP practise in the past. The ERP business for Infosys has seen phenomenal growth in the last 8 years and has done exceedingly well. Their Oracle and SAP practises have done very well too (I have personally seen the practises grow in the last 6-7 years). Infosys has managed to constantly increase the offshore component of ERP projects and thus maintain high margins.

Axon has gross margins in the range of 25-30%. In addition they are based out of UK, US and Malaysia. I am not sure of how much offshoring Axon does, but any improvement in the onsite/ offshore component of their existing projects due to the backend infrastructure of Infosys will enhance their margins. This is a good deal where Infosys gain the front end part of the business ( clients, onsite consultants, relationships , Knowledge etc) and Axon (which will be now be a part of infosys) will see improvements in margins due to higher offshoring.

Is everything hunky dory then ? Not necessarily. Integration of Axon into infosys will be a challenge. Infosys has an ‘Indian’ company culture (I do not mean it in a negative way). They are very conservative on expenses and there are other typical ways of doing things. Axon (about which I do not have any special insight) must have a more European culture. Integrating two such diverse culture will be a challenge. The key asset for an consulting company are its people. If the integration is poor, then employees from Axon (or even from exisiting practise in Infosys) could leave. I think that may not be a major issue in the long term. The company will work on retaining the key employees.

So overall, there is more to this deal than just plain EPS numbers. The ERP practise (especially SAP) is doing well for the company. Addition of Axon will provide further scale to the SAP consulting business of infosys and will add value down the road.

Additional disclosure : I hold infosys stock

A question on trading

A

06/27

some more observations from an outsider

– i have generally noticed that the younger crowd is more attracted to trading. that does not mean older people dont trade. just that if you talk to 100 young guys who are interested in stock market, a sizeable numbers would be into trading
– A lot of my friends who are into trading have a bias for action. There is the thrill of being right and knowing that pretty soon.
– there is more sense of company. you get to discuss about it with more people. value investing is pretty lonely. you buy ugly beaten down stocks. who wants to discuss companies no one has heard of ?
– media and the environment like brokers also encourage trading. no one will recommend buying a stock and sleeping on it for 5 years.

if you are a trader, please do not take this as a criticism of trading. These are just neutral observations (maybe incorrect) of an outsider. I may have bias against trading, but not a bias against people who do trading.
————————————————————————————————
I have noticed in general that the number of people interested in trading are far more than those interested in long term investing or value investing. For ex: there are far more blogs on trading than say value investing. There could be an overlap between the two groups too. I however have no aptitude for trading and it does not fit my temprament. I have said so in the past.

I can understand why there are more folks interested in trading. Trading does have an element of excitement. You get to do something quite often, whereas value investing or long term investing is as exciting as watching grass grow or paint dry. So this is my question – What are the average non – leveraged returns experienced by traders over a multi year period ..say 5-6 years (including a bull or bear market) ?

I agree there are several trading strategies and so to lump all of them under ‘trading’ is not smart. But at the risk of sounding dumb (which I am in terms of trading), I was curious to know what kind of returns do most people get ?

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