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Trading v/s Value investing mindset

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It must be quite apparent that I have mental block to trading. I had written a post on other blog on the same topic in 2004 which I posted again here. The post was written in jest. I do not look down on trading or consider value investing superior than any other form of investing. It is just that the mindset required for each of the approaches is very different.

Let me illustrate with an example

I typically invest in stocks which are undervalued due to some short term sector issue or due to investor apathy. The near term outlook is generally weak and there is no momentum behind the stock. As a result most of the time the stock drops after I start building a position. This happened almost 70-80% of times I have invested in a stock like concor, blue star, KOEL, asian paints, Gujarat gas etc in the past.

If I operated with a trader’s mindset, I would first not get into the stock and even if bought the stock a stop loss or similar such approach would cause me to exit the stock.

However a value investing mindset results in an opposite approach. I typically buy a stock which is selling at 40-50% discount to intrinsic value with a 2-3 year minimum time horizon. So if the market drops or the stock drops for non-fundamental reasons, I re-evaluate the stock to see if my thesis is intact and sometimes increase my holding.

I personally feel that it is difficult to have the two mindsets at the same time (atleast for me). It may not be impossible, but is fairly difficult and only a few investors would be great at both approaches (rakesh jhunjhunwala is one such investor whose name comes to mind).

I had a major mental block to trading in the past. I have started opening my mind to that approach to see if I can incorporate some aspect of trading into my value investing approach. I know for sure that I do not have the temperament of a trader and frankly would not be going down that path.

As deepak has put in the comment below, I think it is important for every investor to figure out his temperament as that has a major impact on every aspect of investing .


momentary lapse of reason said…
also some interesting statistic related to your trader/investor blog.for a trader to make a higher return than an investor over a long term( say 5 yrs) the trader should predict the market more than 70% of the time.. this is highly impossible unless your an oracle..and a piddly 20% pa is better than a 100% profit the first year and a 50% loss in the second. a 20% pa compounded for two years will give you a 44% return on initial investment. in the second case you’ll end up where you started. no gain.
7/11/2007 12:05:00 PM
Deepak Shenoy said…
Trading is a profession and usually involves going full time on it. Investing, on the other hand, tends to have inflows from other income sources. But yes, psychological traits make the trader or the investor. Trading is a mind-game rather than an “art” – it requires a different kind of mindset. Some people thrive in it – some people who run hedge funds have returned more than 100% every year for the last five years. Many others leave it for other stuff – even Wikipedia’s Jimbo Wales was a trader before WP.But intersting thoughts on this. Everyone has to make that call one day or the other.
7/13/2007 01:20:00 PM
Rohit Chauhan said…
yes it requires a very different mindset to be a trader. also i remember reading somewhere that there are very few successful long term traders than investors.i think trading is inherently more difficult and time consuming. very few individuals like rakesh jhunjhunwala are good at both due to the differing mindsets required

Torrent cables – A good opportunity?

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I saw the following post on torrent cables on ranjit kumar’s blog. In addition, I found this analysis on amit’s blog.

The fundamentals look enticing

– RONW – 30%+
– No debt
– A 25%+ growth in topline and bottomline
– Operates in the power cable industry which seems to be doing well and is a growth industry.
– Lower valuation than all its competitors

However I am concerned about the following

– Inventory and debtors has increased in the last few years (debtor days is at 60 from almost 20-25 a few years) back. As a result the company has a very low free cash flow. Most of the cash flow has been used up by the incremental working capital
– Cannot get the annual report for the company. As a result I have no idea on how the company is planning to reduce inventory and debtors.
– The company was in BIFR from 1999-2002 (not sure on dates). Why did the company land up in BIFR and why will it not land up in a similar position in the future?

Comments welcome on the above analysis (which is very superficial as of now)

PS: An apology to all who requested me for prof bakshi’s interview. He has however posted the interview on his website. I would strongly recommend reading the interview (I have done it twice and really learnt from it)

VST industries

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About
VST is involved in the manufacturing and marketing of cigarettes. It is the second largest cigarette-maker in India with 12 brands in its portfolio. The company is an affiliate of British American Tobacco (BAT), UK, which holds a 32.16% stake in the company. Some of the major brands of the company are Charminar, Charminar Special Filter, Charms Mini Kings and Charms Virginia Filter. Its products are targeted at the lower-end of the market and have dominance in the small sized (less than 60mm) micro segment. The company is dependent on ITC for the supply of tobacco. Though the major chunk of revenue comes from sale of cigarettes, it is also in the business of selling unmanufactured and cut tobacco.
In order to establish its presence in unrepresented geographies, the company has last year launched a new brand, ‘XL Filter’ in large parts of Tamil Nadu and the hill states of the North East. In 2005, the company also launched another new brand, ‘Shaan’, which has garnered 4% share in the micro segment.

Financials
The company is a debt free company with almost 200 Crs in cash and investments. The company has been consistently been profitable with net margins increasing from 5-6% to almost 15% now. The Return on capital is consistently above 25%+ and excluding the low yielding investment, the company enjoys very high return on tangible capital. The company has been working with Negative working capital for some time and this seems to be increasing too.

Positives
The company has strong competitive advantage due to the nature of the product for which users have a very high brand preference. Competition is limited to ITC and the unorganized sector at the low end. As a result the company has a strong free cash flow and high return on capital

Risks
Topline growth is low due to high excise and price sensitivity at the low end. Also the company is not clear of how it will use the excess cash and there is always a risk that the company may simply blow away the surplus cash.

Valuation
At 58Cr net profit and 200Cr cash on the books, the company can be conservatively valued at 1100-1200 Cr (at 15 times PE of Free cash flow) which is at 50% discount to the current market cap. The company can grow at a 4-5% topline via new product introductions and price increases. The net profit has grown at a much higher rate of almost 20% for the last 10 years and a 6-7% growth in the future should look achievable. This level of growth and the high ROC can easily justify a PE of 15.
In addition, the company has a dividend of almost 20 Rs / share which is almost a 50% payout ratio .

Relative valuation
ITC is the largest player, but it has several businesses and hence it is diffcult to compare the financials. However a segment based analysis shows that ITC has around 17% post tax margins and around 110% return on capital. In comparison VST has a 15% net margin and more than 100% return on capital. ITC is curently commanding a PE of 20.

Godfrey philips is the second largest cigarette manufacturer. It had a net profit of around 87 Crs and has an adjusted cash and equivalents of approximately 200 crs (net of debt). The company sells at a PE of around 15-16 (net of cash). In comparison VST sells at an adjusted PE of around 7 and this could mainly be due to the slightly lower growth rates than ITC and Godfrey philips.

Conclusion
The company is a slow grower and the unit volume are more or less stagnant. The free cash flow for the business is equal to the net profit and the return on capital is also high. The balance has a lot of surplus cash and this should increase in the coming years. The catalyst for unlocking value could be higher dividend, better growth rates in the topline or continued good performance of the topline and bottom line.

Possible arbitrage opportunity ?

P

I receieved an email on the rumor of the open offer for Lanxess ABS yesterday from mayank. On googling i found the following news item

Lanxess ABS up on open offer hopes

In addition Lanxess ABS has posted the following on their website

Shareholders may take note that Lanxess India Private Limited, Mr Rakesh Agrawal, Mrs Uma Agrawal, Mr Rahul Agrawal, Mr. Vishal Agrawal, Geetganga Investment Private Limited and Tash Investment Private Limited, the promoters of company , have entered into an agreement on June 28, 2007 to sell their share in the Company to INEOS ABS (Jersey) Limited, a company controlled by the British chemical group INEOS. The parties expect the transaction to be completed at the end of September 2007.

So there is a possibility of an open offer. My own intrinsic value calculation is around 300 Rs / share, so even at the current price the stock is available at a 60-70% discount.

However there are some risks
1. The above is still a rumor. Rule no.1 of arbitrage is to avoid getting into such deals based on rumors.
2. Open offer may not be made at a very high premium above the current price ?
3. What happens to the minority shareholder if some decide not to accept the offer ?

I am still trying to analyse the pros and cons on the above. In addition, as i noted in the earlier email, i hold the stock and hence the above post may not be completely unbaised. so please do your own analysis.

Please feel free to leave your thoughts in comments

update : I recieved a comment from ranjit regarding the open offer announcement on BSE. So the open offer is at 201 and for 20% of the capital.

This information changes my view completely. Lanxess ABS holds 51% of the company and other indian promoters hold 19%. As both have agreed to sell out, INEOS would get 70% of the company outright. If the open offer is successful, then they could easily have 90% of the company. I am not sure of the numbers, but i think at 90% they can easily delist the company. So the key point is that investors who refuse to accept the open offer, could in the future be forced to do so. I think company has started doing well and 201 is clearly below the fair price of the company. However the developments are not surprising. This is not the first time an MNC has short changed its domestic shareholders.

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